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In a follow-up to 171 (An Accidental Studio), I revisit the story of George Harrison: Filmmaker with Gary Wenstrup. Coming off the heels of the recent losses of both Neil Innes and Terry Jones, there was certainly more to discuss about George’s relationship with the Pythons, encompassing Life of Brian as well as The Rutles and side issues like Denis O’Brien (and his archetype, Allan Klein).
Erin Weber’s dialogue with Karen Hooper RE personality types – a must read.
Good discussion, and I appreciate the link to the personality types piece.
I know this comes up only as a side note in the episode, but about Yoko’s handling of song-writing credits:
Is it really so bad that she gets credit for “Imagine”? Didn’t Lennon say himself that she should have been credited (sorry I don’t recollect the context, but perhaps he said it on one of the tv shows like Cavett?).
As for her refusal to revamp the credits on “Yesterday,” was that so cold and wrong? I didn’t know about this request of Paul’s so I might be missing context, but the Lennon/McCartney credit deal was a deal and there’s a sweetness, almost something sacrosanct, to the Lennon/McCartney credit despite the obvious fact that so much of the material was not written in partnership. I’m glad she didn’t disrupt it–that’d be out of line imo. If she gives in to “Yesterday,” what might be next–dropping McCartney from “Across the Universe”? Putting McCartney first on “In My Life”?
Honest questions.
Hi T,
Thanks for the thoughtful response. Yes, John did say that about Yoko and the crediting of “Imagine.” But the context was the talking up of their creative partnership, both generally and specifically as he was promoting Double Fantasy. If you’ve heard the shows with Erin Weber, you’ll recall that the veracity of any statement must be measured against the context the remarks are being delivered in. When in the course of promoting a specific project, caution is advised when weighing how accurately and honestly the comments are being delivered. 2) Keep in mind that Yoko was at his side when he made this observation – another factor that enters in. He had 9 years to amend the credit and plenty of opportunities when he wasn’t promoting a joint project featuring Yoko as co-equal in the face of a skeptical audience. He elected not to. But in 1980 when he is trying to convince listeners of their very real and active musical partnership, he uses “Imagine” as an example of what should have been a co-write. Interesting that in that very same year (1971), she IS joint credited on “Happy Xmas (War is Over),” so it is’t as though there was no precedent, had she actually been a literal co-writer. 3) As my guest Ray Connolly pointed out on one of the shows that he appeared on, there is a difference between collaboration and inspiration. John rightly noted that Yoko’s Grapefruit book is replete with “instructions,” often starting “Imagine this…” or “Imagine that…” It’s not a major leap to conclude that he drew inspiration from this, the same way certain other of his songs were inspired by Smokey Robinson or Arthur Alexander or Del Shannon or Lewis Carroll or so forth. Again, collaborating and inspiring are not the same thing. Ray knew both John AND Yoko quite well, and asserted his belief that a Yoko co-writing credit on this song was ridiculous.
As for Paul and the reversing of the credits, if only on a very limited basis, I can see his point. The order was not so sacrosanct when they were reversed to the familiar order away from the “McCartney-Lennon” listed credits for their first album and several singles. Paul was put in the unenviable position of being on the defensive about his role in The Beatles after John’s murder: though the magic came from two equally talented/gifted/genius artists, public opinion was shifted when Paul suddenly found himself having to compete for parity with a legend; especially in an environment where a Philip Norman can declare on television that “John Lennon was 3/4 of The Beatles” and not be laughed right out of the room. Wishing to subtly underscore certain compositions as his babies at a time when Yoko was publicly undercutting him wasn’t unreasonable, IMHO. Moreover, on the five Beatles songs issued on 1976’s Wings Over America, Paul reversed the credits (they were all songs originating with him, after all) and no one raised a peep, not even the still-living John Lennon. Until Paul requests a reversed credit on something ringing false, I think we’re okay to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I thank you for this response, exactly what I was hoping for.
So glad you are doing what you do.
Good discussion, and I appreciate the link to the personality types piece.
I know this comes up only as a side note in the episode, but about Yoko’s handling of song-writing credits:
Is it really so bad that she gets credit for “Imagine”? Didn’t Lennon say himself that she should have been credited (sorry I don’t recollect the context, but perhaps he said it on one of the tv shows like Cavett?).
As for her refusal to revamp the credits on “Yesterday,” was that so cold and wrong? I didn’t know about this request of Paul’s so I might be missing context, but the Lennon/McCartney credit deal was a deal and there’s a sweetness, almost something sacrosanct, to the Lennon/McCartney credit despite the obvious fact that so much of the material was not written in partnership. I’m glad she didn’t disrupt it–that’d be out of line imo. If she gives in to “Yesterday,” what might be next–dropping McCartney from “Across the Universe”? Putting McCartney first on “In My Life”?
Honest questions.
Hi T,
Thanks for the thoughtful response. Yes, John did say that about Yoko and the crediting of “Imagine.” But the context was the talking up of their creative partnership, both generally and specifically as he was promoting Double Fantasy. If you’ve heard the shows with Erin Weber, you’ll recall that the veracity of any statement must be measured against the context the remarks are being delivered in. When in the course of promoting a specific project, caution is advised when weighing how accurately and honestly the comments are being delivered. 2) Keep in mind that Yoko was at his side when he made this observation – another factor that enters in. He had 9 years to amend the credit and plenty of opportunities when he wasn’t promoting a joint project featuring Yoko as co-equal in the face of a skeptical audience. He elected not to. But in 1980 when he is trying to convince listeners of their very real and active musical partnership, he uses “Imagine” as an example of what should have been a co-write. Interesting that in that very same year (1971), she IS joint credited on “Happy Xmas (War is Over),” so it is’t as though there was no precedent, had she actually been a literal co-writer. 3) As my guest Ray Connolly pointed out on one of the shows that he appeared on, there is a difference between collaboration and inspiration. John rightly noted that Yoko’s Grapefruit book is replete with “instructions,” often starting “Imagine this…” or “Imagine that…” It’s not a major leap to conclude that he drew inspiration from this, the same way certain other of his songs were inspired by Smokey Robinson or Arthur Alexander or Del Shannon or Lewis Carroll or so forth. Again, collaborating and inspiring are not the same thing. Ray knew both John AND Yoko quite well, and asserted his belief that a Yoko co-writing credit on this song was ridiculous.
As for Paul and the reversing of the credits, if only on a very limited basis, I can see his point. The order was not so sacrosanct when they were reversed to the familiar order away from the “McCartney-Lennon” listed credits for their first album and several singles. Paul was put in the unenviable position of being on the defensive about his role in The Beatles after John’s murder: though the magic came from two equally talented/gifted/genius artists, public opinion was shifted when Paul suddenly found himself having to compete for parity with a legend; especially in an environment where a Philip Norman can declare on television that “John Lennon was 3/4 of The Beatles” and not be laughed right out of the room. Wishing to subtly underscore certain compositions as his babies at a time when Yoko was publicly undercutting him wasn’t unreasonable, IMHO. Moreover, on the five Beatles songs issued on 1976’s Wings Over America, Paul reversed the credits (they were all songs originating with him, after all) and no one raised a peep, not even the still-living John Lennon. Until Paul requests a reversed credit on something ringing false, I think we’re okay to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I thank you for this response, exactly what I was hoping for.
So glad you are doing what you do.
There is a fine line between direct collaboration and influencing. As you stated those artists who influenced Lennon were not physically present and had no feedback to him Lennon at the time of him composing any songs with them in mind. Yoko Ono, on the other hand was always present when Lennon was composing. Same for Lennon-McCartney and Harrison. McCartney may have written “Yesterday” by himself physically but he did it within the creatively competitive environment he shared with Lennon. It has been shown that neither Lennon, McCartney and Harrison could not write as strong without each others presence because they had formed a higher standard of working they never again attained after they broke up.
Harrison’s collaborations with mostly Lennon were never given credit either. His contributions to “She Said She Said” in 1966 were ignored. The evidence shows Harrison contributed more than 60% in crafting the arrangements of the song. The difference between him and George Martin is that Martin had an agreement with the Beatles as producer and opted to collaborate with them and take no credit. He also influenced them but again these are fine lines.
McCartney is a historical revisionist and has been one before Lennon’s death in 1980. It makes sense why he would want to sole credit of “Yesterday”. It is likely that if Lennon had not been part of the Beatles when Yesterday was written the song would likely have ended up being “scrambled eggs” because McCartney needed the critical feedback that Lennon’s presence instilled on him.
Same for Harrison. His first release consisted of four years of songs he wrote during the Beatles. All things must pass was a resentful type of statement towards his former band mates. But all his releases thereafter lacked the same standard of production and writing. Why? because he didn’t have the competitive presence of Lennon-McCartney around anymore. He also didn’t have their feedback or Martin’s production.
Imagine, the song was nor could it be influential on Lennon. Yoko was herself writing and creative visual art while both Lennon and Ono were producing the Imagine LP. When Lennon wrote “John Sinclair” he didn’t give credit to Bob Harris, Paul Francis Webster and Ray Ellis, who composed the theme for the Spider Man (1967-1970) US TV cartoon show. If one listens to both compositions one can gather that Lennon was more likely plagiarizing the theme from Spider Man’s 1967 cartoon.
Also, Lennon and Ono as collaborators were building a social political presence from 1969 till 1972. Except that Lennon decided to use Ono’s Grapefruit poem (Imagine) to canonize himself and not both of them. He obviously knew the song would be classic and have a great impact once released. He understood how to make a formula song; Give Peace a Chance, Come Together, All you need is Love, The Word, etc… But he chose ego over crediting Ono. Ono also allowed this to occur. Likely due to the context of the times. The collective attitude of the anti Vietnam war and anti civil unrest in the US and UK were driving forces.. but Lennon’s motivations were always self serving during this period. Otherwise, he would have given credit to Ono and the writers of the Spider Man theme.
A good example of how collaboration is defined clearer not to be confused with influence is Prince and The Revolution. When Prince fired Wendy + Lisa whom he rarely credited he also lost the eclectic arrangements and instrumental compositions that created the sounds for songs like Purple Rain, Computer Blue, Baby I am a Star, America, Mountains, Raspberry Parade and countless other songs. Wendy and Lisa’s style went with them and their solo LP’s are great examples of their musical synthesis. At the same time they also lacked a funk and soulful voice and edgy lyrics.
The difference is that Prince could revert to being a solo musician which is how he evolved in the first place. So he gained his success again with Lovesexy, Batman soundtrack, the Black Album etc..Lennon, McCartney and Harrison evolved, unlike Prince, as a unit. relying on each other’s presence like triplets who grow up together and then are separated. They are never truly 100% independent. Nor were John, Paul and George.
Thoughtful post. Mant thanks for putting this up.
There is a fine line between direct collaboration and influencing. As you stated those artists who influenced Lennon were not physically present and had no feedback to him Lennon at the time of him composing any songs with them in mind. Yoko Ono, on the other hand was always present when Lennon was composing. Same for Lennon-McCartney and Harrison. McCartney may have written “Yesterday” by himself physically but he did it within the creatively competitive environment he shared with Lennon. It has been shown that neither Lennon, McCartney and Harrison could not write as strong without each others presence because they had formed a higher standard of working they never again attained after they broke up.
Harrison’s collaborations with mostly Lennon were never given credit either. His contributions to “She Said She Said” in 1966 were ignored. The evidence shows Harrison contributed more than 60% in crafting the arrangements of the song. The difference between him and George Martin is that Martin had an agreement with the Beatles as producer and opted to collaborate with them and take no credit. He also influenced them but again these are fine lines.
McCartney is a historical revisionist and has been one before Lennon’s death in 1980. It makes sense why he would want to sole credit of “Yesterday”. It is likely that if Lennon had not been part of the Beatles when Yesterday was written the song would likely have ended up being “scrambled eggs” because McCartney needed the critical feedback that Lennon’s presence instilled on him.
Same for Harrison. His first release consisted of four years of songs he wrote during the Beatles. All things must pass was a resentful type of statement towards his former band mates. But all his releases thereafter lacked the same standard of production and writing. Why? because he didn’t have the competitive presence of Lennon-McCartney around anymore. He also didn’t have their feedback or Martin’s production.
Imagine, the song was nor could it be influential on Lennon. Yoko was herself writing and creative visual art while both Lennon and Ono were producing the Imagine LP. When Lennon wrote “John Sinclair” he didn’t give credit to Bob Harris, Paul Francis Webster and Ray Ellis, who composed the theme for the Spider Man (1967-1970) US TV cartoon show. If one listens to both compositions one can gather that Lennon was more likely plagiarizing the theme from Spider Man’s 1967 cartoon.
Also, Lennon and Ono as collaborators were building a social political presence from 1969 till 1972. Except that Lennon decided to use Ono’s Grapefruit poem (Imagine) to canonize himself and not both of them. He obviously knew the song would be classic and have a great impact once released. He understood how to make a formula song; Give Peace a Chance, Come Together, All you need is Love, The Word, etc… But he chose ego over crediting Ono. Ono also allowed this to occur. Likely due to the context of the times. The collective attitude of the anti Vietnam war and anti civil unrest in the US and UK were driving forces.. but Lennon’s motivations were always self serving during this period. Otherwise, he would have given credit to Ono and the writers of the Spider Man theme.
A good example of how collaboration is defined clearer not to be confused with influence is Prince and The Revolution. When Prince fired Wendy Lisa whom he rarely credited he also lost the eclectic arrangements and instrumental compositions that created the sounds for songs like Purple Rain, Computer Blue, Baby I am a Star, America, Mountains, Raspberry Parade and countless other songs. Wendy and Lisa’s style went with them and their solo LP’s are great examples of their musical synthesis. At the same time they also lacked a funk and soulful voice and edgy lyrics.
The difference is that Prince could revert to being a solo musician which is how he evolved in the first place. So he gained his success again with Lovesexy, Batman soundtrack, the Black Album etc..Lennon, McCartney and Harrison evolved, unlike Prince, as a unit. relying on each other’s presence like triplets who grow up together and then are separated. They are never truly 100% independent. Nor were John, Paul and George.
Thoughtful post. Mant thanks for putting this up.