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Returning guest Glenn Greenberg (216 Dear Friend; 223 The Beatles 1971 – 1973; 235 Paul McCartney and Brian Wilson at 80) is back for another discussion, this one examining the complex relations between George and Paul – the longest running friendship in the band.
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Excellent discussion. I really enjoyed this one. I was wondering if you were going talk about birth order which I think is critical to how a person develops. I’m glad you touched on it at the end.
I’m not a Psychologist either, but doing a quick search of the term took me to this article which pretty much nails the Beatles’ personalities:
https://www.webmd.com/parenting/what-to-know-about-birth-order
John – only child
Studies show if you’re the eldest child, you tend to demonstrate leadership skills.
Paul – oldest
You aren’t used to sharing … This can make you intelligent and creative, but also stubborn and set in your ways.
George – youngest
You’re usually assured of your place in the family and can be very creative, rebellious, and outgoing.
In George’s case growing up with two older brothers and a sister must have shaped his personality in ways that would have affected his behaviour when he reluctantly became so famous. We don’t have much insight into this subject. How was he treated and influenced by the behaviour of his siblings growing up? I can’t recall George talking about his childhood at all, other than telling David Frost that his earliest memory was sitting on the toilet and yelling “finished.”
Excellent discussion. I really enjoyed this one. I was wondering if you were going talk about birth order which I think is critical to how a person develops. I’m glad you touched on it at the end.
I’m not a Psychologist either, but doing a quick search of the term took me to this article which pretty much nails the Beatles’ personalities:
https://www.webmd.com/parenting/what-to-know-about-birth-order
John – only child
Studies show if you’re the eldest child, you tend to demonstrate leadership skills.
Paul – oldest
You aren’t used to sharing … This can make you intelligent and creative, but also stubborn and set in your ways.
George – youngest
You’re usually assured of your place in the family and can be very creative, rebellious, and outgoing.
In George’s case growing up with two older brothers and a sister must have shaped his personality in ways that would have affected his behaviour when he reluctantly became so famous. We don’t have much insight into this subject. How was he treated and influenced by the behaviour of his siblings growing up? I can’t recall George talking about his childhood at all, other than telling David Frost that his earliest memory was sitting on the toilet and yelling “finished.”
This was really cool, thank you, both! (I enjoyed the last comment a lot — both the sad-happy idea behind it and the nifty 4 prong alliteration).
Chemistry is so mysterious and personal. I don’t think the shrinks will ever map it out.
When John treated George poorly, he might have got away with it more just by being blunt and over the top. I think if Paul expressed something hurtful, you might not realize it fully until an hour later — for (at least on camera) Paul could have that air of superior school teacher-ish refinement (and passive aggression?) that would drive a pretnse-hater like George crazy. That and Paul being controlling in the studio (though who can blame him?).
Would George still be looking up to John with stars in his eyes after he’d embraded Eastern spirituality? It’s hard to imagine. I think George would have viewed John as a poor lost soul. But who knows.
This was really cool, thank you, both! (I enjoyed the last comment a lot — both the sad-happy idea behind it and the nifty 4 prong alliteration).
Chemistry is so mysterious and personal. I don’t think the shrinks will ever map it out.
When John treated George poorly, he might have got away with it more just by being blunt and over the top. I think if Paul expressed something hurtful, you might not realize it fully until an hour later — for (at least on camera) Paul could have that air of superior school teacher-ish refinement (and passive aggression?) that would drive a pretnse-hater like George crazy. That and Paul being controlling in the studio (though who can blame him?).
Would George still be looking up to John with stars in his eyes after he’d embraded Eastern spirituality? It’s hard to imagine. I think George would have viewed John as a poor lost soul. But who knows.
George and John both hero-worshipped Bob Dylan, o’course – John lost his belief at some point but George didn’t. Maybe, John was a tad resentful that he’d stopped being a hero to George and that he was replaced by Dylan / Shankar / Maharishi and assorted Hindu gurus / Clapton et cetera?
George and John both hero-worshipped Bob Dylan, o’course – John lost his belief at some point but George didn’t. Maybe, John was a tad resentful that he’d stopped being a hero to George and that he was replaced by Dylan / Shankar / Maharishi and assorted Hindu gurus / Clapton et cetera?
Emotionally, I believe Paul and George were close. I think John and Paul were close. But I don’t believe John and George were close. For a multitude of reasons. I believe John felt George was a threat to himself and Paul. The only thing John and George had in common was that they coveted Paul’s talent. Every time John and George talked negative about Paul in the press, it sounded like resentment. To me.
Emotionally, I believe Paul and George were close. I think John and Paul were close. But I don’t believe John and George were close. For a multitude of reasons. I believe John felt George was a threat to himself and Paul. The only thing John and George had in common was that they coveted Paul’s talent. Every time John and George talked negative about Paul in the press, it sounded like resentment. To me.
Another nice podcast, but another time when McCartney’s magic has won. You went through entire discussion of Paul’s relationship with George and never mentioned how his relationship with George may or may not have been influenced by his relationship with Mike McCartney.
You briefly (and on other shows) have mentioned George’s siblings. Even though you interviewed Mike once, in almost 10 years, I have never heard you opine on how that relationship might have affected Paul’s behavior as an adult. I attribute the blind spot to McCartney’s magic.
McCartney has spent most of his life convincing everyone to keep his family out of it … he’s pretty much won.
BTW, Paul’s my favorite, partly because he is that “magician” LOL.
BTW #2, have you read the new McCartney biography – The McCartney Legacy. It’s worth it. They fell a bit under his spell, but not entirely!
Another nice podcast, but another time when McCartney’s magic has won. You went through entire discussion of Paul’s relationship with George and never mentioned how his relationship with George may or may not have been influenced by his relationship with Mike McCartney.
You briefly (and on other shows) have mentioned George’s siblings. Even though you interviewed Mike once, in almost 10 years, I have never heard you opine on how that relationship might have affected Paul’s behavior as an adult. I attribute the blind spot to McCartney’s magic.
McCartney has spent most of his life convincing everyone to keep his family out of it … he’s pretty much won.
BTW, Paul’s my favorite, partly because he is that “magician” LOL.
BTW #2, have you read the new McCartney biography – The McCartney Legacy. It’s worth it. They fell a bit under his spell, but not entirely!
It always struck me as odd that George would spend time with other less successful bands and lament that the Beatles weren’t like them.
The Guy is part of the most successful band in history and he is saying, hey lets not do this anymore.. lets do what “Delaney & Bonnie” are doing, take my word “Delaney & Bonnie” and “the band” are great so lets throw all our creative ways out the window and do this…
Also…
The famous Paul comment from 9/1969 seems more like a complement to George’s new songs finished the past year (regardless of when they were written).
Though i agree George did not take it as such..
“Well the thing is,” Paul answered, “I think that until now, until this year, our songs have been better than George’s. Now this year his songs are at least as good as ours.”
I take that comment to mean George’s songs before white album…but its open to interpretation what is meant by “past year”.
It always struck me as odd that George would spend time with other less successful bands and lament that the Beatles weren’t like them.
The Guy is part of the most successful band in history and he is saying, hey lets not do this anymore.. lets do what “Delaney & Bonnie” are doing, take my word “Delaney & Bonnie” and “the band” are great so lets throw all our creative ways out the window and do this…
Also…
The famous Paul comment from 9/1969 seems more like a complement to George’s new songs finished the past year (regardless of when they were written).
Though i agree George did not take it as such..
“Well the thing is,” Paul answered, “I think that until now, until this year, our songs have been better than George’s. Now this year his songs are at least as good as ours.”
I take that comment to mean George’s songs before white album…but its open to interpretation what is meant by “past year”.
I find it so fascinating that in 1971 George was one of many people bashing the Wildlife album, though he did so tepidly. Yet after the Broadstreet film came out instead of bashing it he said he would have made it better As a producer. By the way when Paul was on the Beatles XM channel last year he denied the story that he wanted George on “Wanderlust” so perhaps his memory has faded at the age of 80. As the youngest child I can tell you that we often butt heads with the oldest brothers even as adults. The Beatles truly were a family of brothers. George and John were jealous of Paul the oldest brother. Ringo was an only child who always wanted to hang out with all 3 and wanted to avoid conflict. That perspective informs everything they did. This was another amazing episode with Glenn.
I find it so fascinating that in 1971 George was one of many people bashing the Wildlife album, though he did so tepidly. Yet after the Broadstreet film came out instead of bashing it he said he would have made it better As a producer. By the way when Paul was on the Beatles XM channel last year he denied the story that he wanted George on “Wanderlust” so perhaps his memory has faded at the age of 80. As the youngest child I can tell you that we often butt heads with the oldest brothers even as adults. The Beatles truly were a family of brothers. George and John were jealous of Paul the oldest brother. Ringo was an only child who always wanted to hang out with all 3 and wanted to avoid conflict. That perspective informs everything they did. This was another amazing episode with Glenn.
Regarding Broadstreet & George helping Paul – After all the shots George had taken at Paul both privately and publicly- why would Paul want to ask George for anything? I don’t think Paul felt he could (necessarily) do better than George, but maybe he wouldn’t want to subject himself to George and his negativity. Paul is pretty positive, after all. For all of George’s religion and meditation, etc., he has to be one of the most bitter people ever. Great sense of humor. Great guitarist. Capable of some inner light himself… but he’s the one always complaining about ego (J&P) and yet his ego seemed to dominate everything he did, though it was in the opposite direction. Paul and John were uber confident. George wasn’t, so according to his ego “everyone was out to get him”. The way he treated Patti (and no, none of them were innocent, but George would put in her face), not to mention what happened with Maureen… yikes. George didn’t see a very loyal person. I really do not recall Paul taking shots at George. I do remember him helping George every chance there was while in The Beatles. John, not so much.
Regarding Broadstreet & George helping Paul – After all the shots George had taken at Paul both privately and publicly- why would Paul want to ask George for anything? I don’t think Paul felt he could (necessarily) do better than George, but maybe he wouldn’t want to subject himself to George and his negativity. Paul is pretty positive, after all. For all of George’s religion and meditation, etc., he has to be one of the most bitter people ever. Great sense of humor. Great guitarist. Capable of some inner light himself… but he’s the one always complaining about ego (J&P) and yet his ego seemed to dominate everything he did, though it was in the opposite direction. Paul and John were uber confident. George wasn’t, so according to his ego “everyone was out to get him”. The way he treated Patti (and no, none of them were innocent, but George would put in her face), not to mention what happened with Maureen… yikes. George didn’t see a very loyal person. I really do not recall Paul taking shots at George. I do remember him helping George every chance there was while in The Beatles. John, not so much.